Author Topic: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra  (Read 16496 times)

Budgieye

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra: blue stars and u g r i z
« Reply #105 on: March 07, 2009, 08:36:33 am »
Here is a blue star.
The spectrum is high in the UV and dives down toward the IF.
But the colours in Skyserver show
u             g       r        i           z
17.16    15.95  16.13  16.30    16.40

I know bigger numbers mean dimmer light.
I know blue stars produce all colours of light, though mostly blue.
But I would have expected something like
17    18           19      20         21

Why don't the filter colours correlate with the spectrum?

587741601489420350


I have no problem with red stars
588297865796190292
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 04:53:39 am by Budgieye »
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NGC3314

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra: blue stars and u g r i z
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2009, 06:44:52 pm »
Here is a blue star.
The spectrum is high in the UV and dives down toward the IF.
But the colours in Skyserver show
u             g       r        i           z
17.16    15.95  16.13  16.30    16.40

I know bigger numbers mean dimmer light.
I know blue stars produce all colours of light, though mostly blue.
But I would have expected something like
17    18           19      20         21

Why don't the filter colours correlate with the spectrum?

587741601489420350


There's one step missing. Magnitude zero in various filters does not correspond to the same energy received (for historical reasons, often tracing back to using the A0 star Vega as the primary defining standard). The energy zero points (ZP) for the SDSS filters are approximately:
u 3.67e-9
g 5.11e-9
r 2.40e-9
i 1.28e-9
z 0.783e-9
all in units of ergs/cm^2 s Angstrom. So in each filter, the average energy received across the filter band will be F = ZP x 10^(-0.4 * magnitude), neglecting details like the precise filter transmission and the weighting by photons rather than by energy. This star has colors close to an A0 star which is why its griz magitudes are all so similar. Other magnitude systems have different zero points - constant flux per unit wavelength, constant flux per unit frequency, and so on.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 06:03:37 pm by NGC3314 »

Budgieye

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2009, 08:37:28 pm »
Thank you NGC3314 for your usual comprehensive reply.
Now, as usual, I will have to think hard for a week ( or year).
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Edd

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra: blue stars and u g r i z
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2009, 04:10:59 pm »
Here is a blue star.
The spectrum is high in the UV and dives down toward the IF.
But the colours in Skyserver show
u             g       r        i           z
17.16    15.95  16.13  16.30    16.40

I know bigger numbers mean dimmer light.
I know blue stars produce all colours of light, though mostly blue.
But I would have expected something like
17    18           19      20         21

Why don't the filter colours correlate with the spectrum?

587741601489420350


There's one step missing. Magnitude zero in various filters does not correspond to the same energy received (for historical reasons, often tracing back to using the A0 star Vega as the primary defining standard). The energy zero points (ZP) for the SDSS filters are approximately:
u 3.67e-9
g 5.11e-9
r 2.40e-9
i 1.28e-9
z 0.783e-9
all in units of ergs/cm^2 s Angstrom. So in each filter, the average energy received across the filter band will be F = ZP x 10^(-0.4 * magnitude), neglecting details like the precise filter transmission and the weighting by photons rather than by energy. This star has colors close to an A0 star which is why its griz magitudes are all so similar. Other magnitude systems have different zero points - constant flux per unit wavelength, constant flux per unit frequency, and so on.


Yes, as NGC3314 says, there's various magnitude systems. I'm not sure it works out quite as he said though - we'll maybe have to bash this out a bit. There's something here I'm not understanding.

The Vega system is most traditional and is the one referred to by him - the one where an A0 star basically has the same magnitude in each band.

The AB system is used by SDSS (there's actually tiny corrections but it's near enough AB for most purposes). This gives you the same magnitude if your flux measured in ergs/(cm^2 s Hz) is a constant. It's now quite a common system to work with.

The ST system comes from Hubble stuff I believe (ST for space telescope) and that works in ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom).

There's also the CD system which works in photons/(m^2 nm) - this is what X-ray telescopes use too I believe, but we can ignore that here :)

Converting between the two has been the bane of much of my research at one time or another ;) They're all defined to be equal at 548nm though.

Now if you look at the spectrum plot you'll notice the y-axis is in the ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom) system. That's the ST magnitudes, which aren't the same as the SDSS ones. What should happen though is that you divide through by something proportional to wavelength^2 to convert from ST to AB, and that shouldn't really throw things off much. So what I suspect is happening is that the u band is doing something funny - it's actually at a shorter band than is shown in the spectrum, so are there lots of big absorption features (like those we can see some of at the blue end already) that are making the u band result much fainter than we'd expect?

Another way of looking at it is that something with constant SDSS magnitudes has a constant flux in ergs/(cm^2 s Hz) which means that the flux in ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom) must be proportional to 1/wavelength^2. The curve doesn't go quite like this but gets fainter faster, so the bluer magnitudes should be a bit lower than the red ones - and that's what you get, except for the anomalous u-band.

So erm... after that rather rambly post, back to Bill to figure out the anomaly :)
When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz

mitch

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2009, 09:33:08 pm »

http://cas.sdss.org/dr7/en/tools/quicklook/quickobj.asp?id=588010360687558772


Would you be so kind as to explain what is going on to make this spectra - I have tried to research NeV emission lines but am totally confused right about now....

Thomas J

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #110 on: April 11, 2009, 10:05:14 am »
Hi, Mitch, this chart looks a little inaccurate. You will notice that the redshift confidence is 0.58, this is too low to be trusted. Myself, I only take notice of charts with >.85 zconf.





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mitch

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #111 on: April 11, 2009, 03:29:04 pm »
Hi, Mitch, this chart looks a little inaccurate. You will notice that the redshift confidence is 0.58, this is too low to be trusted. Myself, I only take notice of charts with >.85 zconf.








Thanks Thomas - I hadn't considered that part of the chart before...

Budgieye

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra: blue stars and u g r i z
« Reply #112 on: April 15, 2009, 04:37:15 am »
Here is a blue star.
The spectrum is high in the UV and dives down toward the IF.
But the colours in Skyserver show
u             g       r        i           z
17.16    15.95  16.13  16.30    16.40
I know bigger numbers mean dimmer light.
I know blue stars produce all colours of light, though mostly blue.
But I would have expected something like
17    18           19      20         21
Why don't the filter colours correlate with the spectrum?
587741601489420350

There's one step missing. Magnitude zero in various filters does not correspond to the same energy received (for historical reasons, often tracing back to using the A0 star Vega as the primary defining standard). The energy zero points (ZP) for the SDSS filters are approximately:
u 3.67e-9
g 5.11e-9
r 2.40e-9
i 1.28e-9
z 0.783e-9
all in units of ergs/cm^2 s Angstrom. So in each filter, the average energy received across the filter band will be F = ZP x 10^(-0.4 * magnitude), neglecting details like the precise filter transmission and the weighting by photons rather than by energy. This star has colors close to an A0 star which is why its griz magitudes are all so similar. Other magnitude systems have different zero points - constant flux per unit wavelength, constant flux per unit frequency, and so on.


Yes, as NGC3314 says, there's various magnitude systems. I'm not sure it works out quite as he said though - we'll maybe have to bash this out a bit. There's something here I'm not understanding.

The Vega system is most traditional and is the one referred to by him - the one where an A0 star basically has the same magnitude in each band.

The AB system is used by SDSS (there's actually tiny corrections but it's near enough AB for most purposes). This gives you the same magnitude if your flux measured in ergs/(cm^2 s Hz) is a constant. It's now quite a common system to work with.

The ST system comes from Hubble stuff I believe (ST for space telescope) and that works in ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom).

There's also the CD system which works in photons/(m^2 nm) - this is what X-ray telescopes use too I believe, but we can ignore that here :)

Converting between the two has been the bane of much of my research at one time or another ;) They're all defined to be equal at 548nm though.

Now if you look at the spectrum plot you'll notice the y-axis is in the ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom) system. That's the ST magnitudes, which aren't the same as the SDSS ones. What should happen though is that you divide through by something proportional to wavelength^2 to convert from ST to AB, and that shouldn't really throw things off much. So what I suspect is happening is that the u band is doing something funny - it's actually at a shorter band than is shown in the spectrum, so are there lots of big absorption features (like those we can see some of at the blue end already) that are making the u band result much fainter than we'd expect?

Another way of looking at it is that something with constant SDSS magnitudes has a constant flux in ergs/(cm^2 s Hz) which means that the flux in ergs/(cm^2 s Angstrom) must be proportional to 1/wavelength^2. The curve doesn't go quite like this but gets fainter faster, so the bluer magnitudes should be a bit lower than the red ones - and that's what you get, except for the anomalous u-band.

So erm... after that rather rambly post, back to Bill to figure out the anomaly :)


Thank you for your efforts Edd and NGC3314.  I will get back to this in several months. But I suspect there is no easy explanation.
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echo-lily-mai

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #113 on: April 17, 2009, 10:27:06 am »
Edit –

I shall leave the links here in case anyone was in the process of looking at them.

http://cas.sdss.org/dr7/en/tools/quicklook/quickobj.asp?id=588007005799121154
http://cas.sdss.org/dr7/en/tools/quicklook/quickobj.asp?id=587732482222719155

But will remove my question as i have now found some information out about 0III and H alpha   :)






« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 09:13:00 am by echo-lily-mai »

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starzgirl

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Galaxy Distance
« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2009, 11:32:45 pm »
I have two questions:

First, how does the spectrum of galaxies look different between near/far galaxies than those at rest?

And second, how do we measure the red-shift of a galaxy?
through the spectral lines shifting with time (longer=moving away from us)
is this correct?

i'm kind of a newbie at this so i could really use some help.

EigenState

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2009, 11:49:56 pm »
Greetings starzgirl,

Welcome to the forum!

Two similar galaxies will generally contain the same chemical elements in similar abundances, and each line in a spectrum corresponds to a specific chemical element.  The Roman numeral following the letter defining the element indicates the ionization state of the atom:  I specifies no electrons having been removed so that the atom is neutral, II specifies the removal of one electron, etc.  The notation is rather counter-intuitive, but has been used in astronomy for a long time.

The spectra that are depicted by SDSS are plotted such that the wavelength of light is longer as you move to the right on the plot.  The longer the wavelength, the lower the energy of the light photons, and the "redder" the light.  That is to say that lower energy light, having longer wavelengths is considered to have moved to the red.

That shift to longer wavelength is known as the red-shift.  On galactic or cosmological scales, the galaxies are moving apart--or away form each other--because of the expansion of the universe.  That causes the light emitted by a distant galaxy to appear more red--at longer wavelength--than it would if it were closer to us.  Thus the lines in the spectrum appear more to the right on the plot.

The red-shift is measured by comparing the observed wavelengths of the galaxy in question to the wavelengths observed at rest--that is, within a laboratory here on Earth.  Ideally, all of the observed lines would be seen to shift to longer wavelengths by the same amount, which defines the red-shift.

Hope that helps a bit.  If not, just keep asking questions.

Best regards,
EigenState

Edd

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Re: Galaxy Distance
« Reply #116 on: April 21, 2009, 01:58:48 am »
And second, how do we measure the red-shift of a galaxy?
through the spectral lines shifting with time (longer=moving away from us)
is this correct?


Just to clarify - it's about the position of the lines in the galaxy spectrum compared to the lines we can observe in spectra here on Earth.

The lines do not move over time - well... they do... but only on really long time scales such that the redshift of the object actually changes (so you're talking millions of years, that kind of thing).
When I look up at the night sky and think about the billions of stars out there, I think to myself: I'm amazing. - Peter Serafinowicz

RandyC

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #117 on: June 06, 2009, 02:13:28 pm »
does anyone think this spectrum is odd, all O2, Emission lines not almost perfectly smooth, like a globular's spectrum perhaps, but its a compact blue.
odd odd spectrum
http://cas.sdss.org/dr7/en/tools/quicklook/quickobj.asp?id=587735348018872369




I found this spectrum of globular NGC 5053 for comparison http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=587742903940939799:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 02:36:09 pm by RandyC »
Randy

lizardly

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2009, 12:59:21 am »
does anyone think this spectrum is odd, all O2, Emission lines not almost perfectly smooth, like a globular's spectrum perhaps, but its a compact blue.
odd odd spectrum
http://cas.sdss.org/dr7/en/tools/quicklook/quickobj.asp?id=587735348018872369




I found this spectrum of globular NGC 5053 for comparison http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=587742903940939799:


IMHO the h-alpha and O-III lines indicate a merger, more visible inverted:


« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:01:30 am by lizardly »

RandyC

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Re: Tutorial bits on galaxy spectra
« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2009, 02:55:16 am »
thanks what is it about the H-alpha and OIII that makes it a merger? Why is the O2 so high in comparison. thanks.
Randy