Author Topic: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses  (Read 47775 times)

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #120 on: August 28, 2011, 09:18:25 pm »
Wonderful blurb as usual, Graham. What all theorists should have in their minds are the following 2 basic facts:
1. The charged lepton Koide triplet was used to PREDICT the tau mass, and is still extraordinarily accurate.
2. The pi/12 used in the neutrino phase has a very solid theoretical basis in quantum information theory and number theory.
These two facts alone suggest that there must be some fundamental physical meaning to the CMB -pi/12 phase. But as you say, this will not be resolved quickly.

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #121 on: August 28, 2011, 11:22:37 pm »
They are all aware of point 1 Marni. The problem is that there is a whole treatise on accounting for the mass of a proton and many months or years to calculate it on several supercomputers to 95% accuracy. Unfortunately, although one would think that a theory for electron mass was simpler  there's hardly a page of it around so it is an input mass, not just for leptons but for hadrons also.

Symbology counts. There was that guy who came out of the Temple of Isis brandishing a symbol infront of a crowd of Christians. If they staged it now the consequences would have been even more dire since the sects and creeds have diversified greatly over the millenia. This guy was thoughtful and caring. He knew they were all unified under one although they were a ragtag group of Phenaeceans, Egyptian,Greeks, Romans, Oscans and even Etruscans. Unable to utter anything common to all languages he brought this bust out, this symbol of unification, and exclaimed "Amen", since whatever social group they belonged to they all agreed that their own specific creed was unified by the bottom line which they all signed up to-don't end a line with a preposition.

Mentioning pi/12 made me recollect Karl Brullov's last day at Pompeii-


Although pi today isn't what it was then it represented in the House of the Mysteries at Pompeii. The best way of appreciating it is not from gallery images but from one of dozens of youtube videos.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMtgfbiEfw

Oh! for young viewers avoid the erotica that were secretly entombed for 300 years, until ca. 2000AD?

Better still, the best place to contemplate neutrino mystery is you guessed it, Pompeii. A few travel tips. If you hire a car or go by car or persuade Bruno if you can, don't park in the square outside if you expect to find it one piece when you return, I'll say no more, London is no different. 50m further from the ticket entrance is a campsite; park there and better still camp there or use one of the bungalows. It takes several days days, preferably years to soak up these mysteries. I have not been back for 5 years. Unusual for Italy there's a huge hypermarket within walking distance for refreshments. At least 3 , 5 hour trips are warranted. You reach saturation point easily so I would sketch, sit, view, sketch enough to later produce 3 large oil paintings of Pompeii. Turner had never even visited the Bay when he produced his version.
 
Very very few of them escaped on that last summer's day in AD 79. I'm reminded of that guard; a Roman centurion who stoically refused to leave his post and died on the spot holding his lance, whilst others in their panic dropped wealth galore around him.  He accepted his lot with discipline and duty on a bed strewn with gold and jewellery. I don't intend to hang around long awaiting neutrino enlightenment. There was a youngish female in the crowd I never saw, in her early 30's they said, upon whose upper arm was a perfectly preserved heavy half kilo bracelet of pure gold with an inscription from her domus, "from my master to his slave girl". Times change, creeds change and so also the symbolic representation of them, of equality and the pusuit of happiness, Epicurean ideals for the few who could loot enough gold to adorn their fancy. Maybe he was  a banker or hedgefund manager but we would all like to think of a happy ending where the Stoic Roman won out. A long Stoic end awaits the survivors of the neutrino mysteries.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 11:27:41 pm by graham d »

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #122 on: August 28, 2011, 11:40:53 pm »
Actually, I have visited Pompeii. I travelled quite a bit in my youth.

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2011, 09:54:31 pm »
Can neutrinos be superluminal?
http://blog.vixra.org/2011/09/19/can-neutrinos-be-superluminal/

We will have to wait until Friday. Tommaso had a 6.1 sigma confidence post but it was just taken down- now"access denied".

Super luminal means faster than light velocity.

Quote
Of course such extraordinary claims need very good evidence and for now the most likely explanation by far is a systematic error. For now we will need to wait for the official seminar at CERN on Friday to see what they have to say about that.

Quote
The vacuum becomes unstable because you can create neutrino pairs with negative energy out of nothing.
Go to page 1.

That also implies  right handed neutrinos that could be a dark matter generations or flavours . I have never advocated a dark photon though. I could be wrong of course with a 2 sigma probability on that one- Es irrt der Mensch, solang er strebt.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 09:58:43 pm by graham d »

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2011, 10:49:14 pm »
Quote from: graham d
Tommaso had a 6.1 sigma confidence post but it was just taken down- now"access denied".

Wow! Did you read Tommaso's post? I missed it, and have only seen the rumours. But then, Tommaso is capable of creating rumours too. Did he report on actual OPERA results?

A mirror photon is actually a good idea. It appears implicitly, for instance, in the neutron (not neutrino) oscillation papers. And if it is the unseen mirror neutrinos that create the CMB, as considered after recent MINOS results (which are as yet unpublished), then it makes sense to think of the CMB photons as 'mirror photons', which is to say that a photon is still a photon, only they may come from tachyons.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 01:45:51 am by marni dee »

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #125 on: September 20, 2011, 09:51:31 am »
No. I got deflected there from resonaances,  Lubos' and your blog. Tommaso had been off the air for a few weeks, he must have posted but by the time I got there- access denied flashed up. What irritated me is the "lack of self confidence in ones own results syndrome"  if the consequences are too horrific to imagine then high sigma confidence is irrelevant, it must be systematic error.

Almost three years ago Sean Carroll over on Discover Magazine, Cosmic Variance wrote a summary of dark photon work and its implication that there might be a hidden dark CMB sector without conflicting with the conventional CMB interpretation.

Over on the Dark Matter Thread I came to the opinion that there was no need to postulate a dark photon with its implication of an extra dark U1 gauge symmetry and by inference a dark Planck constant and dark light velocity. The concept of the existence of a dark atom rests upon the different atomic properties caused by a change in the magnitude of electric charge and the fine structure constant. What is conserved is the constancy of the square of the Planck Charge. Hence, a dark charged lepton of higher or lower charge leads to a concomitant change of the square of the fine structure constant. Thus, one doesn't need to change other constants willy nilly. A change in electric charge magnitude and the FSC has dramatic effects upon the stability of atoms and atomic sizes and energies of emission and absorption. Sean's thesis was that a dark photon carried with it the implications of a dark sector where one has to invoke a set of dark particles, a doubling, a duplication involving an equivalent set of different universal constants. However, the gauge symmetry is broken by the incorporation of the magnitudes, empirical measurements, of masses and charges so a dark gauge symmetry is redundant.
Why? U1 rotations or transformations represent the requirement to make the wave equation invariant for local changes of the phase of the wave function. The magnitude of the charge q from Yang Mills is just what is needed in their cheating function to describe the photon energy. So there is no dark photon requirement, but there is a difference in the magnitude of the electric field, the particle has a different charge and mass. Similarly, The Yang Mills conditions extend to SU(2).

Let's jump now to the supposition that a new particle has been discovered and that it's a fermion, namely a neutrino. From Yang Mills if q=0 the particle is electrically neutral and the q*cheating field has no effect. By definition this neutrino, now with mass, isn't part of the Standard Model that admits only the LH variety, in three flavours. It might not exist or it may be a Majorana type etc but we suppose, we infer, it does exist, and it is a form of dark matter. A new neutrino implies its association with a new family of leptons and hadrons yet undiscovered. The Yang Mills condition is that as q goes to the limit zero the particle becomes electrically neutral. This is subtly different to the conventional write off that DM doesn't interact with the electric field.

I don't trust the new Minos view that systematic error is the obvious explanation, when confronted by the horrendous implications to their own field. They ought to consider Weinberg's view that "we don't take our own theories seriously enough". Hence, the association of the 0.0017eV  neutrino  mass with particle pair production and the CMB photon energies I believe is no extraordinary coincidence. Those temperatures could have been anywhere from microKelvin to megaKelvin and they are trying to say that the coincidence at 2.73Kelvin is fortuitous. Nuts! They are trying to brush the problem away.
All we can do is wait.


graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #126 on: September 20, 2011, 12:53:14 pm »
Several superluminal updates have appeared in a few hours, following the Vixra update.
Over at Marni's blog-
http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/2011/09/rumour-of-century.html#comments
Relevant to supernova neutrino cosmology is Strassler's site
http://profmattstrassler.com/2011/09/20/supernovas-and-neutrinos/

On this latter post and relevant to the galaxyzoo forum reader, the supernova mechanisms whether types I or II involve the rapid transmutation within a few seconds of much of the stellar mass. Most of the elements as a plasma that can be denoted as a mix of protons,electrons  and neutrons are about to be transmuted into neutrons. For every extra neutron that is formed a neutrino is emitted. A collossal blast of neutrinos, ~1058 is the operation of the weak force SU(2)whereby a proton ie. 2u quarks and a d quark flips, is mirror transformed into a neutron, 2d's and a u. The important thing is the observed result. Theoretically, the imaginary number  i is the complex number system that contains the identity and transforms i into -i. SU(2) is twice of what the rotational symmetry is in 3 dimensions SO(3), and covers that previous mentioned topic by Alice of when fermion half integer spin requires a 760o rotation to bring i back to -i, the socalled double cover. SU(2) is also the symmetry group of the quaternions. The theorists are forced to handle extra symmetries and have only the remaining three exceptional groups of normed algebra's which Lie himself didn't accept, mainly because they were discovered by his contemporary Killing. The first or E6 is Killing's or bioctonions that represent complex numbers i,j,k and octonions; the second or E7 is constructed from quaternions and octonions. Finally, E8 is built from octonions and octonions. Dirac's vector spinor relationships only hold when the spacetime dimension is 2 greater than that of the normed division algebra dimensions. With extra new neutrinos to account for each spinor is accounted for by two numbers in the associated division algebra. The octonions specify that that associated string theories are 10 dimensional. At this point maths has reached the end of the road, there are no more normed division algebras; dimensions 1,2,4 and 8 ; dimension 16 for the sedenions has no physical application?. Back to the empirical observation.

The neutrinos leave from a tiny region. It's perhaps Earth sized as a white dwarf or as an even more compact source, a neutron star supported by quantum pressure onto which normal matter is accreted in the approach to the limiting 1.4 solar mass condition. The explosion happens and the neutrinos leave mostly unimpeded. However, the luminosity in the visible region arises from themalising the extreme high energy gamma and X rays in an outer envelope that is of size light hours, from the radiogenically created 56Ni and 56Co. This process takes hours and days to build up. Hence, the neutrino wave travels ahead of the thermalised photon extended flash and doesn't imply superluminal velocity. For the Large Magellanic supernoval flash back in 1987, if I recall, the neutrino signal was a couple of hours ahead and 24 years hence , it is still ahead although 24 light years distance. In this case, the neutrinos and photons had flight times of 150,000 years. The Pinwheel Galaxy supernova involves a flight time of 21 million years, two orders of magnitude greater flight time although I doubt the neutrino signal can be recorded. If it could be measured out to greater cosmological distance it would represent a direct test of superluminal velocity.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 12:59:29 pm by graham d »

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2011, 12:10:36 pm »
John Huerta today posts on his division algebra work-
Quote
in precisely the
dimensions where the classical superstring makes sense: 3, 4, 6 and 10.
by subtracting 2 from each dimension we get the 1,2,4,8 possible division algebras I mentioned; the superstring M theory being the 10 dimensional form.
http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2011/09/division_algebras_and_supersym_1.html

It appears to be an octonion world for neutrinos. To include all it's E8

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2011, 09:34:22 pm »
It appears to be an octonion world for neutrinos. To include all it's E8

Graham, we already know that.

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2011, 09:36:21 pm »
JohnF has just drawn attention to the BBC tachyon news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484
Quote
"And of course the consequences can be very serious."
Well it won't change your lives:not yet. :). Is the seminar public?

PS seen the beeb news?
"We already know that"- you told me it was hard.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 09:38:56 pm by graham d »

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2011, 09:47:43 pm »
... you told me it was hard.

Did I? Well, I guess I just assumed that you would do all the wonderful astro cosmo chit chat and I would stick to the crazy, vaguely mathematical stuff. But yes, there is nothing in this work, physically speaking, that we (Rios, Atiyah, Tony Smith and many others) did not already know and write about. Physically, it is very important to understand that Lie symmetries (or n-Lie) are not fundamental in themselves, even the exceptional ones. It is the power of emergent geometry and constructive number theory that brings in these exceptional structures, and hence all other classical symmetries as well.

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2011, 10:08:15 pm »
Well I apologise Marni profusely and I accept the higher maths is beyond me. There are these guys out there sounding afraid and not wanting to appear crazy or predicting the end of of physics and for myself I'm trying hard to retain my own presence of mind disbelieving in tachyons, while whispering in my right ear is Alfred Russel Wallace, there may be two light velocities and two species or more struggling for existence.

marni dee

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2011, 10:51:34 pm »
... myself I'm trying hard to retain my own presence of mind disbelieving in tachyons, while whispering in my right ear is Alfred Russel Wallace, there may be two light velocities and two species or more struggling for existence.

As you know, neutrinos are nothing like charged leptons or hadrons. The oscillation phenomenon indicates clearly the triplet of mass states, but these are not the states associated to any given absorption or emission. Why should they behave like charged leptons? And mathematically, tachyons are very easy to accommodate, without wrecking classical relativity, so long as these neutrinos (and it may only be some of them) ALWAYS travel at a speed greater than c. I don't see at all why we would need two light speeds, if a photon is still just a photon. I would associate the tachyonic neutrinos with the existence of mirror neutrino states ... of course.

JohnF

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2011, 09:22:36 am »
I assume that this is nothing to do with the currently being-tested theory, that the 3-D universe is a representation of a 2-D universe?
John C. Fairweather - http://www.jcfwebsite.co.uk

graham d

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Re: Astronomical implications of Minos neutrino derived masses
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2011, 07:26:01 pm »
I don't think so John but then again everything is interrelated.

Tommaso is due to update any time in the next few hours. Here is his original article that created the rumour.
http://www.science20.com/quantum_diaries_survivor/sixsigma_signal_superluminal_neutrinos_opera-82744