Author Topic: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen  (Read 14876 times)

zutopian

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zutopian

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 06:23:40 pm »
Greetings,

Of related interest:  Highlights from the SOAP project survey. What Scientists Think about Open Access Publishing.

Quote
The SOAP (Study of Open Access Publishing) project has run a large-scale survey of the attitudes of researchers on, and the experiences with, open access publishing. Around forty thousands answers were collected across disciplines and around the world, showing an overwhelming support for the idea of open access, while highlighting funding and (perceived) quality as the main barriers to publishing in open access journals.

Best regards,
ES

The Guardian, Wednesday 11 April 2012
"Academic journals: an open and shut case":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/11/academic-journals-access-wellcome-trust
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 06:29:38 pm by zutopian »

EigenState

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2012, 06:25:35 pm »
Greetings,

The Guardian, 11 April 2012: "Academic journals: an open and shut case":
Quote
The Wellcome Trust's intiative to establish an open-access journal should put an end to a silly system
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/11/academic-journals-access-wellcome-trust

To quote the first paragraph of the Guardian article:

Quote
Some very clever people have put up with a very silly system for far too long. That is the upshot of our reporting on scholarly journals this week. Academics not only provide the raw material, but also do the graft of the editing. What's more, they typically do so without extra pay or even recognition – thanks to blind peer review. The publishers then bill the universities, to the tune of 10% of their block grants, for the privilege of accessing the fruits of their researchers' toil. The individual academic is denied any hope of reaching an audience beyond university walls, and can even be barred from looking over their own published paper if their university does not stump up for the particular subscription in question.

In my personal experience, that entire paragraph is utter rubbish and at the very least distorts the facts.

Best regards,
ES

zutopian

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2012, 06:30:47 pm »
Greetings,

Of related interest:  Highlights from the SOAP project survey. What Scientists Think about Open Access Publishing.

Quote
The SOAP (Study of Open Access Publishing) project has run a large-scale survey of the attitudes of researchers on, and the experiences with, open access publishing. Around forty thousands answers were collected across disciplines and around the world, showing an overwhelming support for the idea of open access, while highlighting funding and (perceived) quality as the main barriers to publishing in open access journals.

Best regards,
ES

The Guardian, Wednesday 11 April 2012
"Academic journals: an open and shut case":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/11/academic-journals-access-wellcome-trust

Previous article:
guardian.co.uk, 9 April 2012:
"Wellcome Trust joins 'academic spring' to open up science":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/09/wellcome-trust-academic-spring

Rick Nowell

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2012, 10:24:48 am »
I've just read the relevant chapter in this book at a local branch of a well-known bookstore chain (and ordered a copy).
Yes, of course it's a thrill to be mentioned as a source of 'inspiration' blah blah blah, but one very important fact that seems
to be constantly missed is the original thread that served as the beginning of my interest, and thus others, and so
lead to the first list of 39 Peas. This one:

'What is this green colored thingy?'  -  http://www.galaxyzooforum.org/index.php?topic=8926.0   started by Nightwatch.
in which he points out this object:
http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=587728917372993708    (looks familiar?)

Nightwatch turned out to be Stefan W., who I contacted when starting to write the Wikipedia article. To quote from his
personal message to me:
"Concerning the PEAs article, I'm facing a serious dilemma now - in hindsight, it was a very very bad idea to use my usual
net pseudo for GZ as well; Does not look that well in scientific articles, and for some good causes I don't won't it to be easily
associated with my real name ... now what should I do? Even if you only use my real name in your article, anyone who follows
the links to the discussion forums easily finds out 'bout my pseudo - and some reader might even get confused ..." [me included]

It is this thread that constantly seems not to be mentioned- Stefan wasn't even mentioned in Carrie Cardamone's paper.
Meanwhile a thread in which someone well-known to GZ asked much the same question about another green object has
become a 'cause celebre' (which is no bad thing at all).

It seems wrong that this has happened as it is a subject I have raised concerns about before. Yes I wrote that list, but
without the original thread- who knows?

Also on my mind is something that by mentioning specifically would probably get me barred from the forum for the second time
(apologies to Alice from me for the first time). This unmentionable subject also had a great deal to do with my mind-set whereby
I could be bothered to put a list together. Of course that would never be mentioned in such an intellectual book...

Also, surely Peas would be blue/white if viewed from nearby, and not red as in the book, which is why they are classed along with
'blue compacts'.

zutopian

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2012, 06:12:12 am »
Hi Rick,

sorry, but I don't understand your concerns:  ???
The "'What is this green colored thingy?" thread was started later than the "Give peas a chance!" thread!

In our account settings, there is the possibility to enter our real names:
Quote
Name*:
* This will be used when we thank contributors, for example, in talks or on posters. If you don't want to be mentioned publicly, leave this blank.

Hanny

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2012, 07:51:25 am »
Er yeah and just for the record, though I accidentally may have set the trend by naming them peas, because that's when others started posting many of them, I never intended to be the one who should name them, or be credited solely for the discovery of them. I made a joke. ::) And to be honest, I cannot be bothered to worry about how often my name gets mentioned with them; I messure my life's quality by different standards, thank you. Having said that, I do hope people who write books will use facts of course, so if that topic would've appeared before mine (heavens, this was so long ago!) I hope they'll mention them too.

I should definitely read this book soon... ::)

Rick Nowell

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2012, 07:52:15 am »
Hi Rick, sorry, but I don't understand your concerns:  ???
The "'What is this green colored thingy?" thread was started later than the "Give peas a chance!" thread!

In our account settings, there is the possibility to enter our real names:
Quote
Name*: * This will be used when we thank contributors,
for example, in talks or on posters. If you don't want to be mentioned publicly, leave this blank.

Indeed the 'Give Peas A Chance' thread was started by Hanny only a few days after the start of the forum. But as she has pointed out,
it was a thread started humorously- a place to put green things. Surely that is different from starting a thread which is about a specific
object?

As for whether Stefan should have more recognition, or whether he wanted any, that is something I feel but not something that was
picked up on. Such is life I guess.

Anyway, the GPs are a great success for GZ, and may that success grow and grow. False modesty is unpleasant and can be contrived,
and so really perhaps I should write 'Yippee! Struggling TEFL teacher helps discover galaxies using a new type of Science', leaving whether
the GPs are new class of galaxy, or rather a subset of a larger grouping called 'Luminous Compact Galaxies' for the scientists to decide. 
Thankyou GZ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea_galaxy

Hanny

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2012, 08:13:27 am »
Hi Rick, sorry, but I don't understand your concerns:  ???
The "'What is this green colored thingy?" thread was started later than the "Give peas a chance!" thread!

In our account settings, there is the possibility to enter our real names:
Quote
Name*: * This will be used when we thank contributors,
for example, in talks or on posters. If you don't want to be mentioned publicly, leave this blank.

Indeed the 'Give Peas A Chance' thread was started by Hanny only a few days after the start of the forum. But as she has pointed out,
it was a thread started humorously- a place to put green things. Surely that is different from starting a thread which is about a specific
object?

I have to disagree with you on the latter. (And again, not because I was the one who started it). I do think that even if started as a joke, if it turns out to be good science, that is no different than starting a topic about a specific object, for two reasons. One: without that joke, it might not have been noticed and two: many discoveries happen by accident, or in this case, started as a joke. I think in the 'give peas a chance' topic, it was Kevin who suddenly dropped by saying something like 'yeah, but we don't really know what they are'. Don't quote me on that one, 'cause again, it was so long ago, I'd have to check.

Anyway, my point is, the one who started the joke (in this case, myself) should not not be mentioned (if it turns out to be good science), because it wasn't their intention to discover something - discoveries happen by accidents! I do agree with you though, that others who have contributed to the project, deserve credit too.

I wish people would worry less about it all though.. And you can argue that's easy coming from me, but remember I never asked for the Voorwerp to be named after me! I had a pretty nice life without it too. And I'm not saying crediting properly is not important - on the contrary! I'm that teacher who tells their students it's very important to mention their sources. It's just that.. I recently made a documentary myself and I really did my best to credit all who contributed, but it could be possible I missed something. In this case, I hope people who feel I should've credit them, will contact me. And I think the Zoo team has done their best to credit people as well, so worrying about others who might feel they have not been mentioned properly, seems a bit pointless to me, to be honest.

I do see your point, but.. well, these are my two cents on it. ;)


Rick Nowell

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2012, 08:50:47 am »
Ok. I, for one, shall cease worrying about this, that or the other and rejoice in the success, however that success came about.
It is healthy to air concerns about this new type of science, especially as this forum has been such a melting-pot of ideas and
opinions- and the first of its kind in many ways. My contribution was certainly never meant to be devisive. Cool...Let's party!!

Hanny

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2012, 09:00:57 am »
Ok. I, for one, shall cease worrying about this, that or the other and rejoice in the success, however that success came about.
It is healthy to air concerns about this new type of science, especially as this forum has been such a melting-pot of ideas and
opinions- and the first of its kind in many ways. My contribution was certainly never meant to be devisive. Cool...Let's party!!

Well said. Agreed. Yeah, let's! ;D ;)

zutopian

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2012, 10:22:40 am »
Please be reminded, that Alice had written a blog post about the history of the green peas discovery:
"Peas in the Universe, Goodwill and a History of Zooite Collaboration on the Peas Project ", July 2009:
http://blog.galaxyzoo.org/2009/07/07/peas-in-the-universe-goodwill-and-a-history-of-zooite-collaboration-on-the-peas-project/

You might want to post a link in wikipedia to her blog post.

Rick Nowell

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2012, 10:29:45 am »
You might want to post a link in wikipedia to her blog post.

In Wikipedia articles, the authors are not allowed to use quotes from or links to blogs or forums, as they are not citable.
Otherwise I would have done so! Embedded links are frowned upon now as well, so an author can't just quote from
a forum or blog, as these can be changed later. Quoting Wikipedia:

"Anyone can create a personal web page or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field.
For that reason, self-published media, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group
blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be
considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has
previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Take care when using such sources: if the information in
question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. Never use self-published sources as third-party
sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SPS#Self-published_sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CITE
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:18:02 am by Rick Nowell »

Alice

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2012, 12:06:27 pm »
There were several posts asking "what's this green thing" before Give Peas A Chance was born, most of which were badly coloured stars but a few of which were peas - I can't remember how many now, might have been a good half dozen! But it was the joke thread that became the collection. I agree that the less we worry about individual credit, the better - since there were so many askers, collectors, and analysers. So, yes, let's look at all of us and the forum itself as great scientists, and pea-arty :D

It is a bit ironic that my blog post, which was the result of my going through the entire thread post by post, was not allowed to be used on the Wiki article, but then went on to inform the book! But then I could add that I didn't do that much for the peas, because I was busy with the teaching course and hadn't time to learn how to analyse spectra, so it's ironic that it ended up coming from me. And maybe it's ironic that a great piece of science came from a time when Rick wasn't feeling his usual self - someone else might have done the same later, for similar or different reasons - who knows? It's just what happened. It's still great that you made that list, Rick. I guess the world of science, which we want to be straightforward, ends up being a big human muddle.

And I love being part of this big human muddle - and I recommend reading the book, it's very inspiring, and shows what a really big thing we're part of now.

Hanny

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Re: We're in a book! "Reinventing Discovery" by Michael Nielsen
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2012, 12:09:28 pm »
Well said as well. Agreed too. ;) Let's pea-arty then. ::) ;D