Author Topic: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)  (Read 17973 times)

Lovethetropics

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2012, 10:28:20 am »
Jean can we invert the galaxies?  I find it's a very good tool to use while classifying spirals  ;D

 *and find lots of asteroids  ;D

JeanTate

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2012, 10:41:36 am »
Jean can we invert the galaxies?  I find it's a very good tool to use while classifying spirals  ;D

What a fantastic idea!  :o  8) (where's the 'kick-myself-for-not-thinking-of-that smilie?!?  :'()

I'll see what I can do ... (brb)

JeanTate

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 10:51:17 am »
Testing, with yesterday's pair:


« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 10:52:58 am by JeanTate »

Blackprojects

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2012, 10:59:23 am »
Thanks Budgieye, Blackprojects, LynnSeguin, and Lovethetropics!  And thanks all of you who sent me your opinions by PM!! ;D  :-*

Everyone thinks both distant galaxies are spirals.  8)

That has encouraged me to ask you to take a look at these four galaxies, and tell me what you think they are. The choices again (somewhat modified) are:

-> certainly some sort of spiral (if you'd like to say what sort - nearly face-on, barred, ring(ed), CW, ... - that'd be a bonus)
-> certainly an elliptical
-> certainly a merger or overlap
-> not really sure, but more likely to be spiral/elliptical/merger (pick one) than either of the other two choices
-> really, truly, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die can't tell! :'( (but for sure it's not a star or an artifact  :D )

If you think a galaxy looks like an edge-on spiral, then it's a spiral (either "certainly" or "more likely than not"); in this case, I'd appreciate it if you could explain why you feel "spiral" and not "cigar-shaped elliptical".

All the galaxies have the same physical scale, 1 pixel = 900 pc [1], and all images are the same size, 200 x 200 pixels.

14: 05:

41: 11:

Please post your opinions in this thread (though you can PM them to me if you'd prefer).

The labels/numbers are my way of keeping track (sure beats writing out long strings, like SDSS names or ObjIds). For reference, the DR7 ObjIds are, respectively (left to right, top to bottom): 588297865255387308, 587739380987265247, 587741490911772750, 588011219134054611.

[1] assuming generally accepted values for the standard cosmological model; the spectroscopic redshifts of the galaxies are all quite good

OK I had to go into ZOO1 For these Good Job i remember how to do it!

The Search Box

http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/setId.asp?id=0x082808c340680097

The Galaxys

http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=588297865255387308

http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=587729386064052375

http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=587741490911772750

http://cas.sdss.org/astro/en/tools/explore/obj.asp?id=588011219134054611

LynnSeguin

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2012, 12:03:01 pm »
Good morning Jean.

14:  likely to be a spiral
05:  certainly a spiral
41:  likely to be an elliptical
11:  likely to be a spiral.

Cheers,
Lynn
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 12:04:40 pm by LynnSeguin »

Lovethetropics

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2012, 12:44:17 pm »
Testing, with yesterday's pair:




Yeah, both are spirals  :-* :-* :-*  YOU ROCK!

 *and find lots of asteroids  ;D

Lovethetropics

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2012, 12:47:11 pm »
The first of the four:  Evidently a spiral  ;D



The second one:  A somewhat disheveled  spiral



Third one, a very distant spiral because it can't be anything else.



Last one, al almost edge on spiral because it can't be anything else.



Of course I could be wrong, guys?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2012, 01:06:43 pm by Lovethetropics »

 *and find lots of asteroids  ;D

Blackprojects

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2012, 01:06:41 pm »
Number1

Looks Like a Clockwise Spiral with Two Arms but is very Fuzzy!



Number 2

Also looks like a Fuzzy Clockwise Spiral with a possible Polar Ring!



Number 3 is a Faint Fuzzy!



Number 4 is a Clockwise Spiral!






Geoff

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2012, 02:45:15 pm »
My take on these: 14, 5 and 11 are spirals. 41 is probably elliptical.
  Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the prospect is staggering!- Arthur C. Clarke

JeanTate

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 02:56:55 pm »
Thank you Lynn, Aida, BP, and Geoff!  ;D

An especial thanks to Blackprojects: Lovethetropics pointed out that many of us zooites like to look at inverted images - in addition to, or instead of - straight ones, to do galaxy classification; you've pointed out that some of us zooites like to use bigger images, where the object fills at least half the image (in some sense). I'll try to include such images in future ...

Blackprojects

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2012, 07:29:37 pm »
Jean

Zooites From Zoo1 Day"s Had An intresting and Steep Education with Much PRODDING by Fellow ZOOITES into Doing things the Correct way.

The Problem was there was No Manual on how to do Things and Once we found out we could go of Exploring in the System well that opend up an Entire Can of Worms!.

Leading to all kinds of intresting Didcoveries !

Aida"s (Lovethetropics) Quasar hunt was one of those She found 1,000s and i sorted them out and posted them teaching me how to Spot them by Spectrum!

jules

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2012, 10:27:58 pm »
My take on these: 14, 5 and 11 are spirals. 41 is probably elliptical.

I agree with Geoff! :)

JeanTate

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 08:41:10 am »
Jean

Zooites From Zoo1 Day"s Had An intresting and Steep Education with Much PRODDING by Fellow ZOOITES into Doing things the Correct way.

The Problem was there was No Manual on how to do Things and Once we found out we could go of Exploring in the System well that opend up an Entire Can of Worms!.

Leading to all kinds of intresting Didcoveries !

Aida"s (Lovethetropics) Quasar hunt was one of those She found 1,000s and i sorted them out and posted them teaching me how to Spot them by Spectrum!

What you're highlighting is, I think, an aspect which none of the zookeepers seems to have investigated, explicitly (at least, as far as I know ... which isn't much); namely that the specifics of how an individual zooite does their best (more accurate, most convenient, fastest, whatever) classifying vary from zooite to zooite. An interesting corollary might be that there are ways of presenting images that might be even better, in terms of speed/accuracy/etc of classifying, ones that no one has investigated yet. And since images are simply data, or a particular visualization of data, it shouldn't matter at all how the data are manipulated (as long as no visual artifacts are created, of course!).

Have you ever seen any of the colorized images joinpep has made?

jules: many thanks!  ;D :-*

jules

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2012, 10:31:28 am »
What you're highlighting is, I think, an aspect which none of the zookeepers seems to have investigated, explicitly (at least, as far as I know ... which isn't much); namely that the specifics of how an individual zooite does their best (more accurate, most convenient, fastest, whatever) classifying vary from zooite to zooite. An interesting corollary might be that there are ways of presenting images that might be even better, in terms of speed/accuracy/etc of classifying, ones that no one has investigated yet. And since images are simply data, or a particular visualization of data, it shouldn't matter at all how the data are manipulated (as long as no visual artifacts are created, of course!).
Interesting thought. One thing I did pick up on during the Zooniverse conference was that the presentation of each projects' set of images (size, resolution, wavelength, overlap of image edges etc) is very carefully considered beforehand and is always set up very much with future data reduction in mind. Another consideration is consistency - ie we are all presented with exactly the same image and all allowed to explore the various tools at exactly the same stage in classifying. (Otherwise our clicks would be meaningless to analyse!)

JeanTate

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Re: Wednesday, 16th May, 2012: Seeing Is Believing (Or Is It?)
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2012, 11:20:57 am »
What you're highlighting is, I think, an aspect which none of the zookeepers seems to have investigated, explicitly (at least, as far as I know ... which isn't much); namely that the specifics of how an individual zooite does their best (more accurate, most convenient, fastest, whatever) classifying vary from zooite to zooite. An interesting corollary might be that there are ways of presenting images that might be even better, in terms of speed/accuracy/etc of classifying, ones that no one has investigated yet. And since images are simply data, or a particular visualization of data, it shouldn't matter at all how the data are manipulated (as long as no visual artifacts are created, of course!).
Interesting thought. One thing I did pick up on during the Zooniverse conference was that the presentation of each projects' set of images (size, resolution, wavelength, overlap of image edges etc) is very carefully considered beforehand and is always set up very much with future data reduction in mind. Another consideration is consistency - ie we are all presented with exactly the same image and all allowed to explore the various tools at exactly the same stage in classifying. (Otherwise our clicks would be meaningless to analyse!)

I'm sure this is so (at least I'd certainly hope it were so!)

But even here, in GZ classifications, we can choose to invert the images we're presented. And no one has control over each zooite's browser settings (well, other than the zooites themselves!  ;) ). In fact, if I recall correctly, in Ice Hunters (or was it Moon Zoo?) the instructions (or guide, in the forum) explicitly includes advice on how to modify the parameters of the browser image display.

Anyway, for what I'm trying to do here*, I'd like the long-term zooites who are having a go at classifying - visually! re morphology! - these "80 pixel fuzzballs" to give it their best shot. In other words, this is my 'committee of experts', partly because many of you are better at this than I am.

* well, today; this mini-project has undergone many twists and turns  :P